South Dakota, thank you for joining us.

Sen.

Rounds: Thank you.

Geoff: For a democratic perspective we are joined by the former director of the office of management and budget under president Biden, now a distinguished scholar at nyu law.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you for having me.

Geoff: President trump and Russ Vought are warning of permanent layoffs, mass firings, a dramatic break from past practice.

What do you make of the way Republicans are rewriting the rules here?

>> This has nothing to do with the shutdown.

This is in line with everything we have seen from this administration.

Who is to say those mass layoffs wouldn't happen if the government were open?

Who is to say that wouldn't happen October 15 if a deal is reached to reopen the government?

You don't get extra authority to fire people because the government ran out of money.

As the senator just said, this is a policy choice.

They are making a policy to use the shutdown as an excuse to continue these mass firings since January 21.

They want the shutdown theatrics around this announcement but I can tell you one thing, I'm not sure whether the government was open or not if we would see anything different.

Geoff: So the shutdown gives them no extra authority.

With the mass firings even be legal?

>> So, this is a great question.

When you have a lapse in funding, which is what congress didn't do its job on time, you usually furlough mostafa and you only keep -- most staff and you only keep the staff essential to the workings of government.

There are military around the world doing critical work.

That should be a very limited number of people.

What this tells me is they made a decision that they are going to bring in hr officials to undertake these firings.

You're obviously bringing in I.T.

People to volunteer to put mass firing warnings on government websites.

There is a legality question about whether they are using volunteer services and bringing in people not paid to do these things that obviously are not critical to the mission of government.

Geoff: President trump said today he views the shutdown as an unprecedented opportunity to slash government agencies and cut democratic priorities.

Russ Vought, as we saidarlier, one of the architects of project 2025, he has openly argued for concentrating power in the hands of trump loyalists and dismantling traditional text -- checks and balances, what I'm hearing you saying is this budgeting piece is a pretext for a power grab.

>> That's exactly what I'm saying.

This is a continuation of the same old, same old since January 21.

Doge, Elon Musk seems a long passed away, but it is not where we saw emails, tell me what you did yesterday or the day be or you will be fired or I will fire someone this day or maybe bring them back the next day.

What is different now?

The shutdown is being used as a pretext to do what they wanted to do with government.

They told us this in project 2025.

This was laid out for people.

We were told this administration wouldn't follow project 2025.

But here we go.

We can check a box throughout that document.

This is exactly following that playbook and the shutdown is being used.

Look at the New York project.

An infrastructure project, the bridges falling apart in new Jersey and New York.

They didn't say for the shutdown they were pulling that money, they said it was D.E.I., they are using D.E.I.

As a pretext.

They want to do these things and they will find a way to do it.

Geoff: On the other hand, what lessons can Democrats learn from the way Republicans are playing hardball?

>> I get this question all the time, how can Democrats win?

When you start that way it is a pretty cynical way of looking at government.

At of the there is any question that Democrats leading government in its best form can work for the American people, that in its best form it helps working-class people enter into paths to the middle class, that it helps the middle-class help their kids do better than them.

No one questions the democratic party's commitment to making government work.

So this is a difficult place for someone like me who didn't preside over a shutdown in four years.

It is because we believed would Joe Biden as president, myself and omb, the right thing to do for the American people was keep the government open with both parties that works for the American people.

We kept the government open every time.

Geoff: How should Democrats push back against what looks like an attempt to dismantle the government?

>> It is hard for people trying to pay bills.

People are not paying attention to this day in, day out.

But Democrats have to keep up the drumbeat.

This is what is happening, it is not ok.

This idea that the government needs to reopen.

The government is operating in ways it never has.

Parts of the government are shut down now even when the government was open.

We see a collapse of norms in the government.

I would proffer that the government isn't operating the way it should in the first place , so wave a magic wand, Democrats collapse, the government reopens, to what?

Are you ok with status quo?

A lot of Democrats are saying they are not geoff: If Russ Vought wants to prevent agencies from receiving money that has been appropriated, what should congress do?

>> The judiciary is involved, you see lawsuit after lawsuit, lower courts saying this is unconstitutional.

Presidents cannot impound come of the constitution has endowed the right and authority to spend money.

That is a congressional right in the constitution.

We get to the supreme court.

And that is where it all falls apart.

So who is it left to?

It is left to the body that the founders said, be a check on the presidency.

Make no mistake, this is more than this vote.

This is a power grab by a presidency, by the executive branch, and congress gave away the keys months ago.

I'm an optimist that they can get it back, but Republicans have to work with Democrats.

They don't work for the president, they work for their constituents.

Geoff: Would you have conversations with your former Biden administration colleagues, what do you make of all this?

>> You know, elections of conseqnces.

I have been around long enough not to cry in my milk because I see a policy I disagree with.

Obviously, I worked to promote democratic values and work on policies popular with the democratic party.

I have been in the majority, the minority when I worked on capitol hill.

I'm over crying about things I don't like.

Elections have consequences.

This feels different to someone who has done this a long time.

This feels like a government that has chosen the very wealthy over working-class and middle-class.

You look at this big, beautiful bill, not my name, there is, over the summer.

You see over 16 million people who will lose their health care.

You see the effort to pass tax breaks for millionaires overextending help for those whose premiums are about to go up.

That is what Democrats are fighting for.

They did it alone in the summer and now they want Democrats to acquiesce after health care has been obliterated and Democrats are saying, no thank you.

Geoff: Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you for having me.

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